O$10: what is the rationale to skip O$9 ?

Grzegorz (Greg) Pasternak gpasternak at cogeco.ca
Tue Nov 6 15:11:57 EST 2018

OK, I don't associate Omnis Studio release numbers with anything else, it just helps me track the versions of the IDE.

If Omnis Studio 9.0 was meant to be too confusing due to association with some operating system then so be it, I don't complain.
I just haven't seen anything on the Omnis web site commenting about the need to skip release 9 entirely, which made me wonder why in the first place.

I see people going off the topic on this thread, so I will add my 2 cents as well:

Why do I like Omnis list?
- it is non-intrusive, I get the emails that are plain text, I get them in the background, I don't have to read any commercials, I don't have to sign up for Facebook or any other social media stuff to get the emails
- I read all emails as they come, if I find something of no interest I skip, however, I can get back to it later if I need to
- I don't need to update my browser to get on the forum (yes, I am old fashion, I don't upgrade my browser/operating system, if I do then it comes with the new computer)
- I do know most active members on the list personally and it makes me feel good to see that they are alive and contributing while getting daily emails

Do I worry about younger developers not interested in Omnis?
- absolutely not, it is their choice, not mine, I am not in the business of selling Omnis to them

Do I worry about Omnis becoming irrelevant?
- definitely yes, I would like Omnis to be up to date as far as technology and look because other people (the actual users/customers) rely on it, we pay support and don't complain

Do I find Omnis list useful?
- yes, even if I only read about problems that other people deal with in their apps

Do I complain about lack of "search features" on the Omnis list web page?
- no, the fact is that this list is maintained by volunteer whom I happened to know, and I would never complain about that as I know that he (Fred) has other things to do, he is not being paid for maintaining the list and making it beautiful and shiny and such, so I know the limits and use the mailing list within its limits

Is there anything better than this list?
- perhaps there is, but so far the list survived many years while other alternative solutions didn't fly too far, does that mean that we are doomed to stick to the list for ever?  well, if somebody feels like having time and resources and energy to create and maintain something better then this list - please do, I will be interested, but the reality is that so far any attempt to substitute this list failed short of promised outcome

So to summarize,
I appreciate all the effort anybody is putting to write emails using this mailing list
I appreciate all the efforts to change things for better by anybody involved
I appreciate Fred and others who helped mailing list come to place and survive when the crisis came (interesting history, maybe somebody some day may write a book about it)

Now it is the time to stick to list etiquette and not hijack this thread any more ;-)


On Nov 6, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Rab <rabtab70 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> I confess I haven't read the whole thread, but in case this hasn't been mentioned yet, I recall there are at least two previous products known as "OS9." Just tossing that out there... :-)
> OS-9 Operating System:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS-9
> "OS-9 is a family of real-time, process-based, multitasking, multi-user operating systems, developed in the 1980s, originally by Microware Systems Corporation for the Motorola 6809 microprocessor. It was purchased by Radisys Corp in 2001, and was purchased again in 2013 by its current owner Microware LP.
> The OS-9 family was popular for general-purpose computing and remains in use in commercial embedded systems and amongst hobbyists. Today, OS-9 is a product name used by both a Motorola 68000-series machine language OS and a portable (PowerPC, x86, ARM, MIPS, SH4, etc.) version written in C, originally known as OS-9000."
> And, of course, Mac OS 9
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_9
> "Mac OS 9 is the ninth and final major release of Apple's classic Mac OS operating system. Introduced on October 23, 1999, it was promoted by Apple as "The Best Internet Operating System Ever",[2] highlighting Sherlock 2's Internet search capabilities, integration with Apple's free online services known as iTools and improved Open Transport networking."
> Best,
> Rob Alexander
> Mophilly
> On 2018-11-06 10:37 a.m., Doug Easterbrook wrote:
>> hi andrew ..
>> I’m inclined to agree —  visibility of answers is important.
>> Simone PIzzolato was very strong on that place being StackOverflow — since thats where all serious answers for a lot of tech things seem to be — and the list was asked in february if there was willingness
>> It turned out — not really.   because there is more rigour required in the answers for stack overflow.
>> There was also discussion on using the Omnis list tool — but that was something to sign into and not completely open.   I know some people ask questions there - but seems not to have a critical mass to go over the tipping point.
>> The criticisms are of the omnis developer list are:
>> — not open
>> — its just a forum
>> — things don’t get delivered to my doorstep in mail
>> Our list seems to like the quaintness of getting answers delivered to our doorstep.  It lacks visibility on things like google search —yet, there are othermail lists (postgres has one) and that seems visible.
>> so, postgres is ok, ours is not.   and the question is why not.
>> a google group — no comment on that, except its doomed unless there is critical mass, like the other options.
>> so.. where to have our interactions and to have:
>> — critical mass of people (i.e. we all need to be one place) and
>> — google search-ability  (if you can’t find the answer on google,it useless) and
>> — a respected forum, possibly curated (like stack overflow where people vote on the answer and provide alternate answers)
>> if we shut down this list tomorrow, I’m sure we’d end up some place.    so the fundamental question is why do we all like this list?
>> it familiar,  for sure -its been here a long time.
>> its friendly.     it has some coding topics and and some mail amongst friends.
>> it comes to your doorstep - daily
>> you don’t really have to sign up or belong (a la google groups), so its relatively anonymous. you just have to send a message.
>> but conversations and answers are not that searchable on google (at least not that I’m aware of). and as you point out, new omniscoders seem to say ‘ohhhh.. a mail list, how old and quaint, ugg'
>> and that might be the only couple of drawback.  new people would use google to search for any thread of a solution.    Like I said, postgres has a list - and you can find their answers via google - an I don’t think they have the same conversations that we have about visibility .. or people flocking to the product.
>> please don’t take my favouring one type of technology over the other.    I only care to go where everybody says we should go.       I do like the mail list.  I think its lack of standardization on answer format is a liability, as is the search-ability.
>> but I really do like its friendliness, openness, lack of being owned by a corporate entity and bit of a wild west nature.
>> on the other hand — I do like the precise answers on stack overflow, my other go to place for SQL answers.   but then I’ve never tried to look for coding answers to C or python or what have you on stack overflow.
>> so, where does that take the conversation.   This topic gets activated  once or twice a year…   and then we stay with status quo.
>> if the answer is that status quo is hurting us (or the future of the community)… then for gosh sakes, lets go cold turkey and shut the list of and got to a specific place.
>> if its not really hurting us .. and we benefit be being different, then lets stay.
>> PERSONALLY … I think we have an omnis that is TRULY NATIVE and cross platform (mac,windows, linux,  tablet and mobile) …   that will make people come to the product.     I don’t mean javascript - since there is enough evidence out there that native apps on mobile platforms do much better than webby ones.
>> have a look at this link — I use it in presentations as it talks about how people use various devices in daily lives, how it is different around the world, commerce conversion rates on mobile vs laptop (mobile is 50% of laptop, meaning people buy more on laptops), and that people prefer native apps on all devices.
>> http://www.smartinsights.com/mobile-marketing/mobile-marketing-analytics/mobile-marketing-statistics/
>> Then it won’t matter where our forums are —   that problem will get solved because of the technology that embodies omnis and how great it will be as a cross platform rapid development tool.
>> thats my opinion. solve the technology needs first.  communication will just happen.
>> Doug Easterbrook
>> Arts Management Systems Ltd.
>> mailto:doug at artsman.com
>> http://www.artsman.com
>> Phone (403) 650-1978
>>> On Nov 6, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Andrew Stolarz <stolarz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> When im looking for another framework, open source modules etc to work with.
>>> One of my MAIN things I look at before I even touch it:  is how big the
>>> community is, and how active are the discussions, and if they have good
>>> documentation.
>>> This is and continues to be one of the main drawbacks of Omnis to gain new
>>> users and even help existing users. Iv asked many developer friends (under
>>> 35) over the last year or so to take a look at Omnis as one of the tools
>>> they use.
>>> Guess what, they would eventually come back to me that they are not
>>> interested in something that they cant find answers quickly online. I told
>>> them to join the mailing list and got some quirky responses like if I still
>>> use dial-up internet etc.
>>> I get it this list has been great, but email lists are pointless if you
>>> cant build visibility online, perform quick searches, and attract others.
>>> We talked about over the years to make the move over to a google groups (or
>>> something similar). I created this group on google few years ago with
>>> little momentum. (if be happy to make Omnis admin to this group so they can
>>> take over  etc).
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/omnis-studio-users
>>> With google groups, you can still opt-in to use only email for
>>> communication, but at the same time the conversations are available to be
>>> searched online via. google for the world to see.
>>> Andrew
>>> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 3:30 AM Paul Mulroney <
>>> pmulroney at logicaldevelopments.com.au> wrote:
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>> Done!  See
>>>> https://www.g2crowd.com/products/omnis-studio/reviews/omnis-studio-review-1076923
>>>> If we all put reviews on here, it will raise the profile of Omnis
>>>> considerably!
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Paul.
>>>>> On 6 Nov 2018, at 4:20 pm, Michael Monschau <michael at brainydata.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi $Guys,
>>>>> These are excellent selling points for Omnis, perhaps you should take
>>>> them and write a review for Omnis Studio at
>>>>> https://www.g2crowd.com/products/omnis-studio/reviews
>>>>> I don’t know if you received the ‘Please write a review...' email from
>>>> Omnis (I am sure you have Bastiaan).
>>>>> You have already done the hard-work here, put into words why you use
>>>> Omnis, so put it out there :). You could probably just copy and paste.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Michael
>>>>> Michael Monschau (Director)
>>>>> Brainy Data Limited
>>>>> Reply To: michael at brainydata.co.uk
>>>>> Phone: +44 (0)870 474 0708
>>>>> Web: www.brainydata.com the home of Omnis Components and Developer
>>>> Services
>>>>>> On 6 Nov 2018, at 07:49, Bruno Del Sol <bruno.delsol at bydesign.fr>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Le 05/11/2018 à 23:21, Bastiaan Olij a écrit :
>>>>>>> The ability to fix problems while you debug and see the effect of your
>>>> changes right there and then without ever leaving the environment you are
>>>> in nor having to restart anything, that is what makes it possible to double
>>>> if not quadruple your productivity compared to other languages.
>>>>>> Yes, the ability to change code while debugging it is the main <extra
>>>> bold> unique selling point </extra bold> of Omnis !!!  No Java, Python, JS,
>>>> PHP environment comes even close to this unique feature. There are 2 others
>>>> :
>>>>>> - Omnis IDE delivers you out of the box several dozens of standard and
>>>> design libraries ready to use, tested and integrated, and they maintain it
>>>> for decades. To get the same features with a Java, Python, JS, PHP
>>>> environment you gonna have to pile up a lot of external frameworks and
>>>> libraries prior to code your first line. And then, congrats, you are now
>>>> personally in charge of dealing with the rapid obsolescence and scary
>>>> safety issues of each of these bits of code for the next 10 years
>>>>>> - Omnis let you truly develop and deploy on 3 operating systems with a
>>>> single codebase (although we have lost the linux development version, which
>>>> I hope we'll get back soon). I work on Macos only, and i daily fix, enhance
>>>> and redeploy apps that run solely on Windows or Linux on corporate sites
>>>> where Macs are unwelcome. Once the proper initial setup is done, I don't
>>>> need to test my work on the deployment platform anymore : if it works on my
>>>> Mac, it will work seamlessly on my clients Windows or linux boxes
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Bruno
>>>> No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery.
>>>> --
>>>> Paul W. Mulroney                                            We Don't Do
>>>> Simple Pty Ltd
>>>> pmulroney at logicaldevelopments.com.au       Trading as Logical Developments
>>>> www.logicaldevelopments.com.au                   ACN 161 009 374
>>>> Ph: +61 8 9458 3889                                       86 Coolgardie
>>>> Street
>>>> BENTLEY  WA  6102
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