O$4 - Copy a continer object

Mischa mischa at omnislab.com
Mon Mar 16 06:35:52 EDT 2015

Hi Michael,

Yes, I'm aware that this concept is alien to MacOS, so I understand that
Doug and maybe other Mac users don't like it ;)
On MS Windows, every application runs in its own window, has its own main
menu bar, and so on. It (normally) does not interlace with other
applications (there are some, that stem from Mac like Adobe, where you can
do that optionally), and has full control over its space. IMO this is the
fundamental difference between win and MacOS. 

So on win platforms a desktop or canvas window would make sense. The problem
with the palette window approach is that they are independent objects, so
when you move the master/canvas/desktop window, they won't follow its
movement. What Michael Mantkowski wants to achieve is a kind of sandbox,
where all windows inside belong to it and will not extend outside its
borders. Or, seen from another perspective, he wants subwindow objects, that
can have a drag bar, minimize and close box and so on, and in this aspect
are like normal windows, but would not leave the space of the window they
belong to.

Best greetings

  T H E   O M N I S   L /\ B     www.omnislab.com

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: omnisdev-en-bounces at lists.omnis-dev.com
[mailto:omnisdev-en-bounces at lists.omnis-dev.com] Im Auftrag von Michael
Gesendet: Montag, 16. März 2015 10:45
An: OmnisDev List - English
Betreff: Re: O$4 - Copy a continer object

Hi Mischa,

As Doug already stated this goes against OS X interface guidelines. An
application's windows must be allowed to be interlaced with windows of other
applications according to the users wishes. If the user wishes to bring all
windows of an application to the front the user can click the application
icon in the Dock. However, if you have windows that always require one or
more other windows to be at the front with them, one mechanism to achieve
this with Omnis is to use palette windows. When an Omnis window comes to the
front, they will come to the front also. If another application is brought
on top, Omnis hides the palette windows. Not sure if that would be a
suitable solution for you.


Michael Monschau (Director)
Brainy Data Limited

Reply To: michael at brainydata.co.uk
Phone: +44 (0)870 474 0708
Web: www.brainydata.co.uk the home of Omnis Components and Developer

> On 16 Mar 2015, at 00:31, Mischa <mischa at omnislab.com> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> yes, this is what I meant with 'Desktop Window'
> I've played a little bit around and discovered (getting to your initial
> problem), that complex grids are copied with their contents. This could
> you a possibility to manage the Z order of your child-windows. You could
> the header of the complex grid as window bar, and the horizontal header or
> the row for the objects/bobjects of your child window, depending on your
> preferences. When a child window shall come to front, you copy it to a new
> complex grid object and delete the old one. This might turn out a bit more
> complicated at the second glance because when the user clicks into an
> field you have to take care that it is the current field in the newly
> created object, but I think it should be doable. Maybe a similar approach
> can be done with subwindows as well, but it might evoke a performance
> when there are many child windows around.
> Hth
> Mischa
> ---------------------------------------------------
>  T H E   O M N I S   L /\ B     www.omnislab.com
> ---------------------------------------------------
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: omnisdev-en-bounces at lists.omnis-dev.com
> [mailto:omnisdev-en-bounces at lists.omnis-dev.com] Im Auftrag von Michael
> Mantkowski
> Gesendet: Montag, 16. März 2015 00:17
> An: 'OmnisDev List - English'
> Betreff: RE: O$4 - Copy a continer object
> I think when Mischa refers to a "Desktop Window" he simply means a Window
> that can contain other windows and act as a container for several Window
> Instances that are independent of each other.  Just like with Word or
> where each document file opens in its own space but can be acted upon with
> all the features of Excel.
> This is what I want to do.  I want to have virtual client spaces where I
> open several windows (Client window, Patient Window, Invoice Window, Etc.)
> and each one is its own space but its Windows act just like any other
> in Omnis.  But it is restricted on its own "Desktop".  Using this, the
> computer operator can then open several different clients and act on each
> them independently without losing their place when they move between them.
> As I said in the previous post, I can do all this now with Subwindows.
> However, the one drawback is that we cannot control the Z Order of the
> Subwindows.  So simply clicking on the Subwindow space does not bring it
> top unless you are in Enter Data Mode or Modeless enter data and have an
> entry field active.  Then once you leave that Subwindow, it goes back to
> Z Order position even if you wanted it to be on top or at least in the 2nd
> position.  This being the case, overlapping windows are a problem.  And
> there is not enough room on a single desktop where I could have every
> they might like to use open at the same time.
> Of course we could start using Tab Panes and other methods of hiding and
> showing various information.  But sometimes it is just nice to have your
> windows where you want to put them rather than where the developer
> Michael
> *********************************************************************
> Michael Mantkowski
> ClienTrax Software
> 1-614-875-2245
> *********************************************************************
> -----Original Message-----
> From: omnisdev-en-bounces at lists.omnis-dev.com
> [mailto:omnisdev-en-bounces at lists.omnis-dev.com] On Behalf Of Doug
> Easterbrook
> Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 4:18 PM
> To: OmnisDev List - English
> Subject: Re: O$4 - Copy a continer object
> Personal opinion.
> I would never want a 'desktop' window -- users on OSX expect that the
> Z-Order of windows be independent of applications.   In other words, you
> have an excel, word, omnis, word, omnis ,then excel window.   in that
> makes interaction between applications far easier
> however, If you wish to use MDI frames metaphor (a la windows), could you
> make a window that sits in the background with everything else aways on
> -- if you wanted.
> Personally, what I really want is the ability to drag items from omnis to
> the desktop -- to get data out of lists
> Doug Easterbrook
> Arts Management Systems Ltd.
> mailto:doug at artsman.com
> http://www.artsman.com
> Phone (403) 536-1205    Fax (403) 536-1210
>> On Mar 15, 2015, at 11:49 AM, Mischa <mischa at omnislab.com> wrote:
>> Hi Michael,
>> this was my prayer to Blyth/Omnis Software/Raining Data/TL since ages:
> Give
>> us a desktop window. This is a window that stays in background all the
> time,
>> but can react to mouse clicks and events - for exactly the thing you have
> in
>> mind. My impression always was, they had no idea what I'm talking about,
>> however now that I sometimes have to test my applications on Macs, I can
> see
>> why - Macs don't have a desktop at all. At $euromnis 2014 I however had
> the
>> opportunity to talk with Bob Whiting, and at least it was acknowledged
> that
>> this in fact could be useful and not too hard to implement ;)
>> You cannot switch the $order in a window instance, however setting the
>> current field should bring it to the front. I did something similar with
>> subwindows, however gave up because the redraw was quite strange when I
>> dragged it around in the master window - the screen contents from the old
>> position was not removed so it had a trail along the movement.
>> Best greetings
>> Mischa
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