An Apology is NOT in Order

Steve adams Steve.Adams at
Fri May 9 09:26:52 EDT 2008

Can everybody PLEASE take this outside into the playground and OFF the

99.9% of us are BORED,BORED,BORED by the childish behaviour. Meet up, have a
fight, exchange punches/handbags and put it to bed.

-----Original Message-----
From: omnisdev-en-bounces at
[mailto:omnisdev-en-bounces at] On Behalf Of David Walton
Sent: 09 May 2008 14:01
To: OmnisDev List - English
Subject: Re: An Apology is NOT in Order

Well, I've been trying to keep out of this but this email is  
preposterous! I think you have some revisionist version of history  
(not surprising for a creationist) but it is my recollection that the  
OmnisCentral Europe conference was announced before Fred said anything  
about EurOmnis - I don't want to take sides but where do you get off  
demanding any apology from anyone? In my opinion, we are a lot of  
developers trying to make a living. Whether there are conferences or  
not, the list is a place to try to find help (hopefully in a congenial  
atmosphere) using this tool that we can't seem to let go of. I don't  
know what community aspirations we developers have - it does seem that  
some contribute more and others less - as their personalities and  
technical savvy dictate - but ultimately, people are just trying to  
make a living. That David and Clifford were so generous with their  
time and efforts only to get trounced by some ridiculous territorial  
dick-waving contest is a sad and (should be a) lamentable occurrence.  
They have merely tried to explain why they no longer desire to host  
our forum. I respect their decisions and completely understand their  
reasons. Why can't we let it go at that?

All of this "supposed" high-handedness" and democratic "community- 
building" you alluding to doesn't actually exist. You - of all people  
- who makes a living off stealing other people's work - shame on you!

I don't agree!! David and Clifford have been there for us over these  
several years and I think we are better off for having had them there.  
We should be thanking them - not asking for anything more - much less  
an apology - you silly person!

Get off your high horse!

On May 9, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Doug Kuyvenhoven wrote:

> Hi All:
> Okay... I'm going to speak my mind.
> The fiasco over the European conferences last year and the events of  
> this week have been disturbing to many of us in the Omnis developers  
> community.
> The accusatory emails and actions over the past 12 months of those  
> in charge of Omnis Central, whom we considered to be leading the  
> Omnis developer community, have damaged our community.
> It saddened me to watch the bickering and accusations by our leaders  
> over the European conferences as to who was right and who was wrong.  
> It didn't really matter who was right and who was wrong. In the  
> position of leadership you (D&C) should NOT have fought for your  
> rights and bullied your way across the pond to host a European  
> conference. The right thing would have been to FIRST ask the Omnis  
> developer community if they would be in support of Omnis Central  
> running a conference in Europe, possibly Germany. No one questioned  
> your 'right' to host an annual conference in North America... but  
> you had no precedent to hold one in Europe. Asking first would have  
> avoided a lot of problems. Good leadership would have backed off and  
> apologized rather than start a power struggle, enter into public  
> debate, and force the community to decide between 2 European  
> conferences. Poor judgement, poor leadership.
> You shocked all of us on Monday by shutting down the the  
> OmnisCentral portal and sending out a lengthy email raising past  
> issues that we wanted to put behind us... and you left us wondering  
> what was to become of the future of our mailing list. We aren't your  
> minions. We are independent Omnis developers who help each other via  
> a mailing list. You might have the 'right' to make the decision as  
> to who gets the mailing list... but good leadership would ask for  
> input from the community and let the community decide or at least  
> have a say in it. Honestly, who died and made you king over us?
> Heck, if you had told us on Monday that you were tired of running  
> Omnis Central and were having a discussion with Mark, Brian, Fred  
> and Dan to make a smooth transition of the mailing list to omnis- 
> you would have saved us all a lot of work and anxiety. I  
> would never have bothered to spend my time and effort to pull  
> together
> We are tired of the bickering and long winded emails. Clifford, I  
> don't care to read any more long winded emails about your political  
> views, or your negative comments about Omnis. You enjoy debate.  
> That's fine... debate on some list where there are others who like  
> point for point, tit for tat, arguments. We're not here for that.
> We want to do our work, cooperate, and help each other... mixed with  
> some friendly banter.
> The pain you (D&C) feel for the large part, has been self- 
> inflicted... and you dragged all of us into it.
> I believe you (D&C) owe an apology to the Omnis Developer Community  
> for your unwise leadership over the last 12 months.
> I'm ready for a group hug and getting back together as one big happy  
> family... but an apology sure would be good. A simple, "I'm sorry"  
> would go a long way towards healing the rifts that you (D&C) have  
> created in our community.
> BTW - I will not be making the decision on whether or not the  
> mailing list is shut down... that will be put to  
> a vote of the members. I think many of the members at  
> would like to first see if peace is restored in  
> the house (the mailing list) before we leave our new  
> home. It's kind of nice and peaceful over there... safe & friendly  
> atmosphere... helpful folks.
> Doug Kuyvenhoven
> Vencor Software
> _____________________________________________________________
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